The electric car revolution

[duke63]

Private cars will be banned from many city centres in coming years.

From memory Oxford, York and Bristol are already in the process of making it happen..Birmingham Council's future transport planning does not include private cars at all.

[Cav]

I'm not convinced by electric cars yet. Too expensive and too large / heavy. Infrastructure not there yet either, nor is the recycling infrastructure.

Where a reasonable family car is £20k or so - they now seem to be £40k. Madness. Especially as the technology is changing fast.

I agree - I'd happily have one car and then use taxi's or payg cars for closer journeys.

We already only have one car and we can't afford to replace it with an electric one. An electric car would absolutely be fine for us although I'm no longer with a green energy provider so the whole green thing is somewhat tarnished.

Cheapest ICE cars are low teens, cheapest electric cat is £32k? More than twice the price. Oh and no estate EVs, only big expensive SUVs

[Kwacky]

The main driving factor for switching to electric cars is air quality in urban and suburban areas.

Poor air quality is a massive issue when it comes to the health of the public.

I know people love to argue they're not green because they need electricity, but that's a side argument.

[Cav]

It isn't a side argument in the slightest. It's purely carbon offsetting. You're polluting the same as anyone else, just far away from where you are. It's exactly the problem they're facing with getting people to "buy into" global warming because people can't see the ice caps melting and yet they're happy to do it with electric cars.

I agree it's 1 way of reducing pollutants in cities.

[duke63]

Electricity can be produced with zero emissions. Not sure any other fuels can be.

The reality is most cars can carry 4-5 people, yet 95% 0f the time they only have one occupant but use pretty much the same amount of energy. It's not sustainable.

[Monty]

The important point is the network infrastructure and what we feed into it. If we have petrol cars they can only run on petrol, if we have hydrogen cars they have to run on hydrogen and we're stuck with it and the infrastructure for many years. If we have electric cars and an electric network, they can run on gas, oil, coal, solar, hydrogen, wind, tidal power, nuclear power, hydroelectric power, stored energy and any future energy source. We don't need to replace the network or the vehicles every time a new energy source comes out. Plus it divorces us from a single energy market, the price goes up, use something else until it comes down.

Hydrogen definitely has a place though, I can see it replacing diesel engines in lorries and construction machinery. It's third less energy dense than petrol and you need a really big tank.

The other point that Kwacky made about where we pollute is very important. With an electric network, we can move this away from highly populated areas and ultimately drive it down to zero. You can't do that with any other current fuel source, and even Hydrogen engines produce some nitrogen oxides.

[duke63]

Good points, Monty.

We do still have to change the way we live though. There are already far too many single person cars using our roads, regardless of what they run on. Many places are very close to gridlock conditions at peak times.

[Monty]

Good points, Monty.

We do still have to change the way we live though. There are already far too many single person cars using our roads, regardless of what they run on. Many places are very close to gridlock conditions at peak times.

I think that will change with the generations, my kids aren't really interested in cars or bikes in the same way I was growing up. They seem much more interested in how much power you can get out of a graphics card before you need to water cool it!

[Monty]

Here's a good example of what multiple energy source networks have achieved in Sweden, in this case district heating networks for domestic heating and hot water. It's not electricity, but the basic principles are the same, the infrastructure does not change, the energy source does over time.

Sweden is basically a rock with no natural resources or access to north sea gas and was massively dependent on oil and coal imports. After the oil crisis in the 70s, the government purposely raised oil TAX and didn't drop the oil price down to normal levels. They ploughed this money into industries developing renewable heat infrastructure and they pioneered things like geothermal heating and CHP from methane gas waste sites.

This is the effect it had on CO2 emissions

[duke63]

Good points, Monty.

We do still have to change the way we live though. There are already far too many single person cars using our roads, regardless of what they run on. Many places are very close to gridlock conditions at peak times.

I think that will change with the generations, my kids aren't really interested in cars or bikes in the same way I was growing up. They seem much more interested in how much power you can get out of a graphics card before you need to water cool it!

I think you are right.

My son would be quite happy not to own a car at all. He has no passion for road going bikes or cars at all. He does like watching the racing of both but thats as far as it goes.

[D41]

Apparently more than 26% of cars manufactured in the UK in 2021 were hybrid, electric, ULEV, etc.
Over 82% of them were exported.
Overall car production figures for the UK as a whole are at their lowest level since 1956.

*Society Of Motor Manufacturers And Traders (UK).

[Monty]

Good points, Monty.

We do still have to change the way we live though. There are already far too many single person cars using our roads, regardless of what they run on. Many places are very close to gridlock conditions at peak times.

I think that will change with the generations, my kids aren't really interested in cars or bikes in the same way I was growing up. They seem much more interested in how much power you can get out of a graphics card before you need to water cool it!

I think you are right.

My son would be quite happy not to own a car at all. He has no passion for road going bikes or cars at all. He does like watching the racing of both but thats as far as it goes.

We might have to change our generations name from Generation X to Generation flipping Taxi service!

[D41]

"We"....??

[duke63]

I've tentatively being looking round at new cars the last couple of weeks. Most cars are at least a 6 month wait, some a year or more.

I've been looking at mild hybrid Toyotas and booked in to try one tomorrow. 60+ mpg seems very appealing now and in the coming years but I'm not ready yet to commit to full electric with my own money. Most just don't have enough range without massively more investment in charging points.

[StMarks]

I've tentatively being looking round at new cars the last couple of weeks. Most cars are at least a 6 month wait, some a year or more.

I've been looking at mild hybrid Toyotas and booked in to try one tomorrow. 60+ mpg seems very appealing now and in the coming years but I'm not ready yet to commit to full electric with my own money. Most just don't have enough range without massively more investment in charging points.

The Honda NC1 is a hybrid.

[duke63]

TBH i only want a car that gets me from A to B in comfort and as cheaply and reliably as possible.

I would struggle to get in and out of that Honda on a daily basis now. One of the reasons for thinking of changing my current A3 is because its too low.

[Monty]

"We"....??

**** off, Boomer!

[D41]

Baby-Boomer generation was '46-'64 if memory serves (I think..????)..... I'll have you know that I miss that window by a handy margin, thank you very much.

[StMarks]

**** off, Boomer

Baby-Boomer generation was '46-'64 if memory serves (I think..????)..... I'll have you know that I miss that window by a handy margin, thank you very much.

You nippers should stop bickering over mere semantics.

[Cav]

The important point is the network infrastructure and what we feed into it. If we have petrol cars they can only run on petrol, if we have hydrogen cars they have to run on hydrogen and we're stuck with it and the infrastructure for many years. If we have electric cars and an electric network, they can run on gas, oil, coal, solar, hydrogen, wind, tidal power, nuclear power, hydroelectric power, stored energy and any future energy source. We don't need to replace the network or the vehicles every time a new energy source comes out. Plus it divorces us from a single energy market, the price goes up, use something else until it comes down.

Hydrogen definitely has a place though, I can see it replacing diesel engines in lorries and construction machinery. It's third less energy dense than petrol and you need a really big tank.

The other point that Kwacky made about where we pollute is very important. With an electric network, we can move this away from highly populated areas and ultimately drive it down to zero. You can't do that with any other current fuel source, and even Hydrogen engines produce some nitrogen oxides.

Some good points but none are crystal clear:
Electric energy sources CAN be clean but the Government doesn't do anything about that and is actively trying to shut down Nuclear (much cleaner than traditional sources). Aren't all our offshore wind farms French?
Hydrogen is definitely the fuel source for commercial and industrial plus high mileage users.
Moving the pollution elsewhere doesn't solve the problem, it just says that people in cities are more important than people out of cities.