IAM

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Re: IAM

Postby Kwacky » 06 May 2018, 12:25

Check run booked for next week.

Really good day today. He's being ultra critical now so my Run Report looks bad but it's what I need.

We had a few minutes on a car park doing slow riding skills. He showed me how to shift my weight and countersteer to get the bike over faster and turn tighter. I need to practice it but I was picking it up. It helps when you know your bike and the balance.

I need to stop indicating so much and I've been told off for using the mirrors when it's not needed.
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Re: IAM

Postby kiwikrasher » 06 May 2018, 12:30

I’m confused at how you can indicate ‘too much’? If you are indicating your intentions how can it ever be a negative?? And using the mirrors when not needed? Surely as long as you aren’t distracting yourself from what’s in front of you regular check of mirrors are a positive?

We don’t have anything like the IAM here so find some of these observations a bit weird.
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Re: IAM

Postby Blade » 06 May 2018, 12:47

Regular mirror checks are for the rossers (rock)
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Re: IAM

Postby Kwacky » 06 May 2018, 12:54

You only indicate when others will see it. I need to forget I'm being followed and pretend that the observer isn't there. I'm indicating to show I've seen his signal. It's hard to explain.

Mirrors ties in to the above. I'm using my mirrors to see if he's indicating to tell me when he wants to change direction.
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Re: IAM

Postby Blade » 06 May 2018, 12:57

Sounds like a radio would be better.

Bit harsh to expect you to watch your rear for his indicators as you don't know the route then critisice you for looking in your mirrors
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Re: IAM

Postby kiwikrasher » 06 May 2018, 12:58

My theory is you indicate regardless, what’s the harm?? There maybe someone off the road in a driveway or such that you might not be aware of, so being in the habit of indicating all your movements as if there is some one to see it is a good trait not a negative IMO.

But I guess you have to perform to the IAM requirements if you want to progress, just seems counter productive to me.
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Re: IAM

Postby Blade » 06 May 2018, 13:18

I 've done the IAM and understand their position that there is no need to indicate if no one will benefit but I also don't see how it can be a negative.

Your providing information to other road users. If it serves no benefit that's fine but its also not a negative.

Seems fussy for fussys sake imo.
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Re: IAM

Postby kiwikrasher » 06 May 2018, 13:40

I’ve actually been pulled over by a copper in NZ (in a car) because I didn’t indicate a turn. It was dark and he has been sitting off the road with no lights on. When he asked me why I’d not indicated, I replied that there was no one to indicate too. He replied that it is your lawful requirement to indicate your movements at all times regardless.
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Re: IAM

Postby Kwacky » 06 May 2018, 13:46

Maybe I'm not making myself clear. Maybe I've not highlighted that he's being ultra critical. If you read the IAM booklet you get there is article called "The Thinking Rider" which acknowledges that we're human, have our own ideals and ideas and that there are different circumstances to taste into account. There's also a section about different learning styles. It isn't black and white, it never can be.

What he's doing now is highlighting very minor issues for me to think about and work on.

He's said I'll walk the exam, it's mine to lose. I'm smooth, quick, confident and competent. I know what I'm doing. He enjoys our rides, which is why we're out for longer than he usually is. I went on some cracking roads and there wasn't much slow speed limit stuff today. The ride back to our meeting point was made at good progress.
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Re: IAM

Postby kiwikrasher » 06 May 2018, 13:48

Fair points. Like I say, I’ve had no exposure to anything like IAM before.
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Re: IAM

Postby Kwacky » 06 May 2018, 13:49

Blade wrote:I understand their position that there is no need to indicate if no one will benefit but I also don't see how it can be a negative.

Your providing information to other road users. If it serves no benefit that's fine but its also not a negative.

.


Any indication, hand or mechanical, only serves a purpose if there's someone else there. That's the point he's making.
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Re: IAM

Postby Blade » 06 May 2018, 16:20

I get it Kwacky (y)

I understand what he is saying and why, I just don't really agree with it and was sticking up for you pal. But like you say he is being ultra critical.

Glad your enjoying it and know you will breeze the test.
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Re: IAM

Postby T.C. » 06 May 2018, 17:27

The issue about indicators is quite simple.

When taking the L test, riders and drivers are taught to indicate for everything. It becomes automatic .

However, this becomes a double edged sword.

Firstly, the definition of an indicator is that it is a signal of intent. So...

I intend to turn right
I intend to move to the right
I intend to turn left
I indend to move to the left or
I intend to move to the left and stop.

It is not a signal of achievement as many road users seem to think, so as a benchmark, unless it is likely that at least 4 flashes of the indicator can be given to signify the intent, then it is not going to achieve anything and in some cases it can confuse.

It also often results in the wrong signal being given at the wrong time (and I deal with a lot of crashes because of this) simply because road users do not think about where and when to display the appropriate signal.

For example, I see a lot f road users give a right then left hand signal to go staright ahead at a mini roundabout. Why?

If the mini roundabout was not there, it would be a crossroads. What is the recognised signal for going straight ahead at a crossroads? There isn't one. The same rule can also be applied on a normal sized roundabout because in most case, to give a signal means that you are only likely to give a couple of flashes before you exit. Give it any sooner it is more than likely it will be before the first exit which can be confusing and you also run the risk of failing to cancel on the exit which again if there is a turning on the left just after the roundaboot could cause the situation to misread by drivers waiting to pull out as it happens that they think the aproaching bike is slowing to turn left when in fact you might be accelerating.

This is just an couple of examples, but the whole point at this level is to get riders and drivers thinking about the signals they give and giving a signal to those who will benefit when it is required.

How many of you coming home in the early hours of the morning will give a signal to turn into your driveway even though there is no one about? If you are observant yo will knw what is around you as part of the system and you will be prepared to give a signal as a follow on to the information phase should circumstances require it otherwise the only person likely to benefit is the local tom cat.

My local garage is on a one way system. You come out of the garage and you have to turn right. 99% of drivers indicate to turn right when they leave the garage even though you can only go one way.

How many of you signal when moving off from the kerb? Why? What benefit is there because if you have traffic coming up behind oyu I would suggest you are going to hold your position until it is safe and clear.

But, again, having done your observations and considered it, if your riding plans determine that a signal would be beneficial then you have justified the se of those signals but you are also showing that you are full aware of the surroundings and you have considered your options.

On a Motorway, how many of you signal to return to the left hand lane? few I bet, but why? You are only signalling to return to where you rightfully belong on the road.

But this is often taken to overtaking on single lane roads. You see a vehicle pick off a quick overtake and then ignal to return back to the nearside lane.

I probably deal with more crashes caused by the wrong use of and the over use of signals than an other primary cause simply because people use them without thinking.

I don't mean to sound patronising or teaching you to suck eggs, but just trying to explain the difference (albeit badly) between the signals you are taught to give for the test and the way we think about it at advanced level.

I fail so many people for poor use of signals many who make similar comments to those here until it gets explained to them, which is why I am pleased that Kwacky's instructor/observer has picked up on it. Many observers have no idea.
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Re: IAM

Postby Kwacky » 06 May 2018, 19:04

An invaluable post from TC. Thanks.
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Re: IAM

Postby D6Nutz » 06 May 2018, 20:14

Top post TC.. If only your thoughts could be passed on to the motoring public in general.
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Re: IAM

Postby Blade » 06 May 2018, 20:40

Your an experienced, seasoned all year round rider Kwacky and I respect your opinion.

Genuine and sincere question, have you benefited from the training? I would assume so as all good training is worthwhile, so can I ask in what areas has it made you a better rider?
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Re: IAM

Postby Kwacky » 06 May 2018, 21:37

Yep, it's made me take in more around me and to be more self aware, so more self conscious rather than just riding along. I'm reading a lot more information as I'm moving along.

I think it's far too easy to go into auto pilot, I've learned to stop doing that.
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Re: IAM

Postby Stonesie » 06 May 2018, 23:12

That's a very informative post TC, strangely it goes against some of the training that I have received as a 'Professional' driver, even on my bike test I got a minor fault for not indicating off a small roundabout when going straight ahead with nothing else around, so I usually do that now.

I need a bit more advanced training I think.
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Re: IAM

Postby T.C. » 06 May 2018, 23:56

Stonesie wrote:That's a very informative post TC, strangely it goes against some of the training that I have received as a 'Professional' driver, even on my bike test I got a minor fault for not indicating off a small roundabout when going straight ahead with nothing else around, so I usually do that now.

I need a bit more advanced training I think.


That is why I made the point that advanced differs very much to the L test and I and many of my felllow examiners/instructors usually tell people to forget 95% of what you learnt to pass the test as they insist on doing it by the numbers and is set in stone.

At advanced level, the key word is "Consider"

So in your case, being given a minor fault for not indicating off a small roundabout actually breaches the Highway Code definition.

I could cover a whole chapter just on this subject as to why 75% of signals given are wrong, misleading, inaccurate, uneccessary or simply not required in the first place.

Unfortunately when taking your test, you are required to give these stupid signals because it is required and it becomes habit.

What the DSA won't tell you is that you are leaving yourself wide open for liability or maybe even prosecution in the event of a crash where the use of your signals has been deemed as contributory or a primary cause.

This is why the L test has been deemed not fit for purpose for such a long time.

A few years ago it was decided that when the register of post test instructors was introduced that DSA examiners should be examined themselves and the 2 chief Poo Bas from cardington went to Devizes to do the Police advanced course.

I was required t examine my local L test examiner and 20 minutes into the test I terminated the ride it was that bad. The examiner was riding to the L test standard and assumed that would be at or at least sufficient at advanced level.

His head was spinning by the time I went through his debrief and explained the differences followed by a demonstration.

The top 2 gus from the DSA went to Devizes to the regional Police school and lasted 7 days of a 4 week course. They could not get their heads around it,

This is how the enhanced DAS course (I forget the name for now) came into being and they try to sell or promote as an advanced course.

The whole deal about advanced riding (not just signals) is considering the options not doing it because you have been told to.

Think about the options and do what is appropriate. If you have considered something and you can justify it, great, if there is no requirement, then don't.

Advanced riding is not clever or skillfull, it is nothing more than the application of some very simple rules coupled with good observation and planning :)

Sorry, I did not man to go off on a tangent, please accept my apologies. I will get off my soap box now
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Re: IAM

Postby kiwikrasher » 07 May 2018, 00:27

Don’t apologise TC, not many forums have the pleasure of input from someone with your level of experience and knowledge. Even though I am in a different country, your points still give me food for thought. Although I have done a couple of advanced riding courses they have been technical riding skills, not road craft.
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